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| Goku versus Superman - There can never be a winner. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 25 2014, 12:12 PM (1,824 Views) | |
| superperfectnerd | Jul 25 2014, 12:12 PM Post #1 |
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Now, before I begin trying to explain what I understand about both franchises, I will admit, whilst I adore both characters, there are undoubtedly more holes in my Superman knowledge. This doesn't really matter however as my purpose here is to explain why you can't compare feats and achievements from the DC verse and the DBZ verse. First of all when it comes to comparing everything that is considered 'canon', Superman straight away has the advantage, he has been fighting the good fight for 75 years, he is the original super hero and is a world wide icon. He also has the privilege of having multiple incarnations and a plethora of different writers with a plethora of different interpretations of his power. Anything considered 'canon' for Goku however all stems from one mind and progresses in a linear fashion from start to finish. Superman fans have the advantage of drawing from all of Superman's greatest feats in 75 years, whilst anything considered a weak showing can be put down to 'bad writing'. Another advantage in Superman's corner comes in the structure of comics themselves, they are different from the manga which Goku heralds from. Comics always conveniently explain exactly what is happening in a lot of scenes, "Superman is travelling this fast...he's lifting this much...he just punched Darkseid in the face with this exact amount of force..." No version of Dragonball does this to such an extent, so numbers and abilities are left to speculation by comparing Goku's earlier feats and estimating what he should be capable of later on, which is sketchy at best. Another common problem comes when people argue that Superman has sneezed away solar systems and moved planets and punched reality in the face and it's suggested that Goku has never done these things, so therefore he can't do them. Superman has had 75 years of story and feats, Goku with his one linear story line has never had reason to destroy a planet, why would he? What also seems to be completely misunderstood is the destructive power of ki, now people are always trying to work out numbers, (Superman has survived such and such megatons of blast force whereas Goku has only survived this much) that kind of thinking can not be applied to ki, it's like magic, a force made of will and a person's character, it can't be quantified. In Dragonball it's not about the size of the explosion, but the intensity of the blast. For example, we know that Master Roshi can destroy the Earth's moon with a power level of 139, however, if he had used that attack on Raditz, the saiyan would be left completely unscathed standing in a moon sized crater. Piccolo's Makankōsappō (special beam canon) only destroyed the side of a mountain, but it cut through Raditz like butter, because it had a higher level of power. Frieza's attack didn't destroy Namek straight away because he held back his blast in order to not get caught up in the explosion of his ki, NOT the explosion of the planet which he proved he could handle even when exhausted, cut in half and partially melted by Goku's blast. He also needed to be quick to avoid Goku stopping the attack. That whole 'can Kid Buu destroy a galaxy or can Cell destroy a solar system' debate, doesn't matter, because it's not about the size of the explosion. Superman is certainly smaller than both. Ki is not heat or concussive force it is just...well...ki! Now for speed, yes we know Superman is fast, really fast, but we can't definitively know if Goku can keep up or not. Before the whole "Superman traveled from here to here this fast and Goku only travelled from here to here this fast" is mentioned, I strongly believe that flight speed does not play a major role in fight speed. We can even apply it to real life. Usain Bolt is the fastest sprinter in the world, but is he as fast at fighting as Bruce Lee? Or Muhammad Ali? I doubt it. Plus, people use the anime to judge how fast Goku is fighting, the anime is supposed to entertain, they have to show the fight to us and the characters have to converse, that doesn't mean those fighters are moving as slowly, talking as slowly or charging their attacks for as long as they seem to be in the show, but it would be boring if Goku said "kamehameha", had a difficult fight with Cell, realised he couldn't win and then gave up all in the blink of an eye! In Dragonball krillin and Master Roshi fought, played Rock Paper scissors and engaged in germ warfare, all too fast for Yamcha a SUPER human to keep up with. That's with a power level of less than 100, when goku fought Frieza he was at 150000000 and everything after that is speculation. When Goku fought Cell, only Gohan could keep up. The point is, the later fights don't LOOK any faster than early Dragonball, but we know that they of course are much faster, but we need to see them to enjoy the show. I know Superman has awesome reaction and combat speed too, but my point is they can't be easily compared. We do know however that Master Roshi with a power level of 139 could catch bullets from a machine gun at point blank range. As for durability, I know that Superman is an absolute tank, he can unquestionably survive countless megatons of force. But I still have no idea how he would handle ki attacks because, as I said before, ki just doesn't work that way, whether it makes physical sense or not. A frequent argument against Goku's durability is he didn't survive the explosion that destroyed King Kai's planet. Well, it was the ki energy from Cell's exolosion that destroyed him, not the planet blowing up. As for whether or not Goku's punches would hurt Superman, well, power equals mass times speed, so it depends on combat speed again. But when Goku attacked Recoome, it seemed to show that he augments all his striking blows with ki energy anyway, so again, completely unquantifiable. Superman's lifting strength is unparalleled, there's no doubt about that, I personally believe that if Superman got hold of Goku that would be all she wrote. However, Goku deserves more credit for his strength, that forty tons thing is ridiculous, he lifted a car when he had a power level of 10 and took a bullet to the face. General Tao in Dragonball threw a pillar miles across the planet and killed another super human with his tongue. He lifted and dragged what in reality would be much more than 40 tons multiple times in Dragonball as a child. The Vegeta gravity chamber feat shows that Vegeta (and therefore Goku) can practice combat at super fast speeds under intense gravity and before anyone says well that isn't that impressive it's only 500 times body weight, I don't think gravity works quite that way, remember the Sun only has about 27 times the Earth's gravity. Plus it wouldn't just be their bones and muscles that would suffer, their internal organs would have to work harder too. Human's couldn't survive in two times gravity for long due to the strain on our hearts. Let me reiterate, I love both franchises and characters, I do not back either one in the fight, because I have no idea who would win and there is no way to figure it out. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 25 2014, 06:34 PM Post #16 |
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I'm not saying Goku and Vegeta haven't grown ridiculously strong by the end of Z, especially considering the events of Battle of Gods, I'm just saying that before BoG, them getting that strong didn't make sense. I also don't think Uub can reach the heights of Kid Buu before he's had training. If Kid Buu's power is his full potential, which it should be, why would it be higher? Then if he can already achieve that when he fights Goku, it shouldn't take Goku long to train him. I think he has a long way to go before achieving Kid Buu level power. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jul 25 2014, 08:23 PM Post #17 |
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Well no Uub wasn't at kid buu's power right when the fight started. Goku pissing him off brought out his true power though. Goku implied that he was expecting kid buu's level of power and he said it's exactly what he got I know it's crazy for goku to get that much stronger. A good explanation is that he absorbed a portion of ssjg, which did happen, and it brought him to ssj3 buu saga goku's level Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 25 2014, 08:25 PM.
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| + Steve | Jul 26 2014, 01:10 AM Post #18 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I don't see how Ki could possibly considered anything different from Omega Beams and all the other crazy kinds of powers Superman has faced and overcome. It's all Ki really just represented and gained in different ways. If Superman can take on an eye beam of 100 power he can take on a KHH of 100 power, there's nothing magically more powerful about it the series just has over the top levels of destruction. Speed, Goku isn't really close to him at all most Superman incarnations hit light speed or faster easily, nothing ever suggests Goku does except with teleporting which is barely viable in a fight, not against someone with Supes intelligence and reaction speeds. He's not going to stand there like "OH NOOOO" when Goku tries an instant KHH. Plus he goes fast enough to fly through time, Goku has nothing on that. Or his phasing abilities or that crazy vibrating punch thing he does. Course Goku easily beats some incarnations of Superman, in base he could make a lot of them cower in a corner but what use is it comparing the weakest incarnation to the one linear incarnation of Goku at his maximum? No matter how you look at it Superman, generally is way more physically powerful Goku struggles with 40 tons while flying in base whereas Superman regularly pulls planets about and at one point holds Earth for 5 days without energy from the Sun, Earth in D.C being 5.9 sextillion tons IIRC. Superman might not be able to blow up planets with energy beams but that's not the only way in which a being can be strong. |
![]() Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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Jul 26 2014, 01:17 AM Post #19 |
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I still don't get why this guy continues to bring up 40 tons Flash is able to KO superman lvl beings in 1 shot and he's not physically stronger than Goku and please stick to 1 superman you just combined 3 of them |
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| + Solid Snake | Jul 26 2014, 01:47 AM Post #20 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Lol teleporting is a huge factor in any fight it helped him against Cell-Buu-and Birusu... |
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| + Steve | Jul 26 2014, 02:18 AM Post #21 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Because writing/PIS/CIS They all just stand there instead of moving, he only teleports instantly he doesn't do anything else remotely instantly he still has to swing his arms forward which any sensible being would use as an opportunity to dodge. DBZ features some of the most idiotic characters ever. It's not like he can teleport all over the place constantly in a fight, how on earth can he even use that against someone who can fly through time?
Because it's the last stated weight lifting feat IIRC, sure lifting while flying might be harder but 40 tons is hardly going to be as hard as lifting several sextillion tons. Not to mention Supes casually taking on several quintillion tons without breaking a sweat. Also Flash doesn't use basic human strength to do that... He does the same vibrating thing as Superman to increase the mass of his attacks, or pretty much, try reading up on his powers before trying to downplay Superman's based on Flash being human. |
![]() Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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Jul 26 2014, 02:29 AM Post #22 |
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the flash is still physically weaker than Goku Steve rofl You won't see the flash training with weights Anyways i still don't see why you feel the need to bring up weights again when people not in superman's weight class can make him bleed Batman in detective comics can make him bleed just by being injected with venom rofl Edited by King Kakarot, Jul 26 2014, 02:30 AM.
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| + Steve | Jul 26 2014, 02:33 AM Post #23 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Go learn science or stop making trolltastic posts please. And that depends on the Superman as explained before there are many incarnations, some of which Goku could defeat with a well aimed fart but generally Supes has no trouble with him the more common incarnations(in comics at least) would slay him. |
![]() Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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Jul 26 2014, 02:48 AM Post #24 |
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Troll comments that's hilarious Flash isn't physically stronger than Goku Fact Yeah new 52 Batman can make New 52 superman bleed and he's nowhere close in his weight class and you would know that if you read comics SSJG Goku beats All Star,New 52,Smallville, and Post Crisis supes Solar system buster+ is much more than those supes can handle He loses to the other cosmic tier supes |
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| Goddess Ultimecia | Jul 26 2014, 02:57 AM Post #25 |
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In theory, even though Goku can't fight whilst in Instantaneous Movement it is still a doosy to deal with, one second he's there and in the next few milliseconds you've already been punched 20 times in the back of the head. It only seems unuseful (screw English) because either the character he has fought with miraculously survived due to regen even though the part that allows him to logically should've been atomised or the character he fought literally needs to be completely atomised in order to win. I haven't watched BOG in its entirety but I did see the scene where Goku is using IT to dodge Birusu's strikes. It seemed pretty useful there. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jul 26 2014, 03:08 AM Post #26 |
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If you're talking about silver age supes then ok but post crisis and new 52 Supes do NOT regularly pull planets. I don't mind someone saying new 52 supes is faster than manga goku. He reaches lightning speed rediculously fast. Post crisis supes does not though. Since anime goku is allowed here(I think), goku is MFTL in combat Instant transmission was helpful in his fight against beerus Let me know when superman can walk through a punch strong enough to easily one shot someone who can survive solar system+ busting blasts. As far as I know, he's never done that or even close to it. Maybe he can do it sun dipped idk He can't throw punches hard enough to hurt goku. Small planet shattering and moon shattering that's it. That's no where near hard enough to hurt goku. And when he did actually hit the moon with his punch it was a huge crack. The moon didn't shatter. Of course he said he was on the defensive when he said he could shatter small planets but I'm not going to assume his punches become solar system level. Other than infinite mass punch, his punches can't hurt goku Goku can push something that has enough force to crush a planet. Again, Superman has never done this or lifted/pulled a planet without help. I wish people would realize though that your physical strength has NOTHING to do with how hard you hit. It's slow twitch vs fast twitch muscles Superman flying through time isn't a feat he can use in a fight. I think his heat vision can beat goku though Btw this is all assuming we're not using silver age superman. But since post crisis superman is being included(I think) then anime goku and battle of gods, whether you think it's canon or not, should be used too. Post crisis superman is not canon anymore and post crisis alone has multiple versions of superman Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 26 2014, 03:23 AM.
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| + Steve | Jul 26 2014, 01:38 PM Post #27 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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It is trollish you do this in practically every topic involving DB characters here, refusing to look anything up and accept that DB characters can be beaten by people just because you like DBZ. Superman can vibrate his arms so fast that he can displace atoms. He could literally put his hand in Goku's head, stop vibrating and then Goku's brain would just be destroyed, or any other part of his body as well as displace the atoms in his own body to have anything pass through him. I don't see why we should use newer weaker versions of Superman when Goku gets stronger every few years, could just as easily put kid Goku against pre Crisis Superman. Solar system busters take a while to charge y'know, what's Supes supposed to do while he's charging is he just going to sit there and have a cup of tea?
The characters indeed survive due to miraculous regen but they get hit due to miraculous stupidity. It's like if you stepped out in to the street and a lorry was coming at you, would you just stand there like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when you could have moved? That's what Cell did, he could have ducked or anything. I forget how it was used against Beerus exactly but he's like a Looney Toons character in terms of intelligence so... Supermans punches would easily hurt Goku, his planet shattering punches are completely different from hax explosions. Just because they don't destroy solar systems doesn't mean they're weak that's not how it works, blasts in DB don't hit with a lot of force, they explode with a lot but it's hardly comparable to the sheer amount of weight put in to Supermans vibrating punch, I forget the numbers but it's like a million billion megatons or some s*** focused in to a fist sized area, not an expanding explosion pushing things away. Ki fuelled punches damage Ki > Solar System level but that doesn't increase the force of their punch, as we can see again with the 40 tons physical strength is pretty low, still wildly superhuman but nothing close to quintillions of tons. If Goku struggles with 40 tons in base how the heck does he take on the condensed mass of a punch similar to being hit by a planet in the face? Their bodies aren't that tough, their muscles struggle, they still need air to breathe, they get illnesses way way below planet busting level. Ki damages Ki that's how it works, it offers no defence against being crushed by billions of tons. If it didn't, there'd be no such thing as powering down and being vulnerable their bodies would always be at their toughest but we all know it doesn't work like that. They need Ki flowing through them to survive attacks based around Ki. So long story short they're defended against Ki based attacks, punches, explosions etc etc not against everything in the universe. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jul 26 2014, 03:14 PM Post #28 |
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@steve goku doesn't need to charge a solar system buster at all. He can do it with unamped ki blast. Eventually it's just as simple as piccolo shooting a moon buster and others casually planet busting Ki blasts don't hit with a lot of force? I have no idea where you got that from. Their blasts have enough force to easily make their way through planets In dbz, when the gap is big enough between two fighters, all it takes is one punch to shatter their opponent. EOZ goku is many times stronger than super perfect cell. There is no doubt that he can throw a punch strong enough to one shot someone with solar system durability. There's people who can one shot cell with a punch but can't hurt EOZ ssj goku. Ki only protects against and damages ki? I don't know where you got that from. Then why are they able to destroy inanimate objects with ki? Why do they take no damage when they're sent flying and smash into a mountain? His muscles can't lift 40 tons. So what? His durability clearly outweighs his lifting capabilities. It's not like 40 tons is going to literally crush him. He just won't be able to get up. There isn't enough force behind supermans punches to hurt goku when he's surviving punches that have way more force If we canon versions of both goku and superman then we are only using new 52. Other than his speed new 52 supes is nothing special compared to a lot of dbz characters Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 26 2014, 03:49 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 28 2014, 12:37 AM Post #29 |
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Goku vs Tien Goku had tremendous battle speed in Dragonball when his power level was in the hundreds. Here he moves too fast for super humans with super reflexes to keep up with.This fight looks faster than a lot of DBZ fights in the anime, of course it isn't though, Goku was much, much, much faster later on in the series. |
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| The Greatest Known | Jul 28 2014, 11:41 PM Post #30 |
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Thoughtful breakdown, I completely agree. |
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